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Re: Is It Time for America to Break Apart?

By: micro in POPE 5 | Recommend this post (0)
Tue, 30 Jul 19 2:50 PM | 33 view(s)
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Msg. 36902 of 62138
(This msg. is a reply to 36868 by Decomposed)

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Good morning De.

I do not disagree with everything but as a student of Lincoln's life, many things that have been suggested are smply not typical or follow his normal demeanor.

He was TORN over the issue of slavery and he was against it personally and morally.

Slavery would have ended onits own in 30 years? Based on what evidence??? Southern planation owners depended upon the price of a slave to provide them free labor for the rest of their lives. It was an heinous crime against humanity anywhere in the world. There are no exceptions.

Just because someone else does something does not make it "right".

HE did not kill 2 percent of his citiens. Can we say that about every war that is fought? Maybe we should say the same thing about Korean War, Vietnam, both world wars?

Aparently he was not the only person who believed that inorder to save the United States, it is awfully hard to be UNITED when half of them are leaving to set up their own government because they preferred slavery rather than simply voluntarily end it on their own. Thus none of that would have likely happened.

Many men who fought for the Union Army did so believeing they were going to set other men free. An awful lot of Geerals felt that way. It was expressed in their writings. Chamberlain, who distinguished himself at Gettysburg, but wenton to attain t he rank of General, comaanded a division and fought with Sheridan, and became a multiple term governor of Maine, stated this was ana rmy to set other men free. He was not alone.

No sir. Slavery would not have ended onits own in 30 years if left unchecked with no pushback and resistance. That I believe is a pipe dream.

BTW, let's take your hypothesis and test it. WOULD YOU or ANYONE you know wantto be a beaten, whipped, slave for thirty years of your life???? How about most of your entire life??? Only 30 more years. Come on now, you can take it... lol!!!!!

You see my point?

WHether that would ever occur or not is mute that you think it is okay to indenture and enslave people for 30 years waiting, hoping, that the generosity of their owners of plantations would by the goodness of their hearts just let them go free.

They didn't let any go free up until now, in fact hunted them down when they escaped and murdered them brutally. I cannot understand why you think these same people would ismply just end this willingly?

I do not believe the tenth ammendment is there for a STATE of the UNION to seceed. I do not believe any of the legal scholars of the day did either. WHY would a territory apply to the United States Government to become a STATE of the United States?
That is a topic of debate and apparently the legal scholars of the day did not share your view.

WHY did the SOUTH want to remove itself from the US? So it could continue in it's crime against humanity and pretend that somehow this was about only "state's rights?"

WHAT rights? WHAT RIGHTS did the federal government try to take away from southern states?? OTHER than dealing with the issue of slavery.

AND, btw, MANY congress people from ALL of the STATES were opposed to the continuation of slavery, not LINCOLN ALONE.

What Licoln's statement reperesents that yyou cited is thathe was TORN internally with the death and bloodshedof so many men over this terrible conflict.

While the war did not start with freeing the slaves as the Primary reason, it became part of the reason. Lincoln decided to enlist escaped slaves or any black men who wanted to help fight for their freedom to help end this war and the loss of so many lives.

Lincoln had a broken heart over his grief from the loss of so much life. YET he had to bring this horrible chapter in American history to an end.

He won re-election. HOW did THAT happen if so a majority of men were not in favor of resolving this thing?

Lincoln's initial goal was to keep the United States of America intact. He initially went into Virginia to try to capture the government located in Richmond and bring a swift end to this.. No other reason..

You think Lincoln was a power mad crazed egotist? Wow. What have you been reading to support that? He wanted a United Country, and MANY agreed with that. Otherwise he could not have done what happened..

Anyway, we could talk about this for a long time and you and I are never going to agree. Perhaps you might agree that slavery was an evil thing that needed to end and never started here in the first place?

All the rest of history is what was. What we have left are the writings of the letters from the particpants and recorders of History.

We were not present so we do not have the ability to have witnesed things ourselves. Onlythe veiws through the eyes and perspective of someone else.

Nevertheless, it is NEVER RIGHT to MURDER someone because YOU don't like their politics, THAT view makes a person o better than the Antifa thugs, or ALQueda or ISIL.

That's about it from here. Nice talking about it.
We agree to disagree.

No biggie.... Thumbs Up Very Happy


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The above is a reply to the following message:
Re: Is It Time for America to Break Apart?
By: Decomposed
in POPE 5
Tue, 30 Jul 19 4:16 AM
Msg. 36868 of 62138

micro:

Re: "In the end, he saved the country... "
In the end, it wasn't the same country it was under the Founders. Lincoln destroyed that country.

He also ravaged half of it and killed 2 percent of his fellow citizens. Why? To prove that he could violate the Constitution (since secession is not prohibited and the 10th Amendment makes it clear that it is therefore within the rights of states.)

Yes, I know what the U.S. Supreme Court ruled *after* the war. But what else was it going to rule?

Slavery in the United States would have ended on its own within 30 years. It was rapidly ending everywhere and was virtually gone from the civilized world by 1900. The South would have followed suit. To preserve it would have made the South a pariah, and it needed to trade with the rest of the western world. In fact, Washington's tariffs were devastating the South's ability to do that and were the single biggest reason for secession.

The Civil war was many things but it definitely wasn't a noble attempt on the part of Lincoln to end slavery. In August 1862, midway through the war, he wrote:

If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union."

And if he had fought the war to abolish slavery, he'd have been an even bigger douche since the Constitution *CLEARLY* permitted slavery (see the fugitive slave clause and the three fifths clause). The Constitutional way to eliminate slavery was via amendment. If Lincoln was eliminating slavery because that's what he personally wanted, then he would have been promoting himself to King. I trust you'll agree that it's not good for a President to do that.

But, as I said, that wasn't the war's purpose. In fact, emancipating the southern slaves (but not the northern ones) was done to further undermine the South.

Lincoln's goal was to keep the Union intact and prove that central government reigned supreme over state government - which, up until then, it did not. To do that, he spat on the Constitution he was sworn to uphold. It didn't take courage to do that. Most likely, Lincoln invaded Virginia because he badly misjudged the South and thought that it would be an easy win that would ultimately make him more powerful.


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