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Re: Abortion

By: Cactus Flower in ALEA | Recommend this post (0)
Wed, 27 Jun 18 1:14 AM | 72 view(s)
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Msg. 25850 of 53075
(This msg. is a reply to 25848 by xcslewis)

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It's a lovely bit of verse, especially in the KJV version. But I don't think it provides a complete answer. I don't see it as being a universal statement about embryos, foetuses, babies or the value of life. Indeed, I think when you read the whole psalm, it deliberately refutes any argument that such values apply to mankind universally. This isn't Alexander's homonoia. It's the Jewish equivalent of Aristotle's division of the world between Greeks and barbarians.

Let me tell you what I think this psalm is about.

First, I read it as saying that the psalm's writer can have no secrets from his maker. Wherever he turns, god is present. In heaven. In the dark. In the womb. At the end of the earth. Everywhere.

Second, the value of the psalmist's life isn't merely expressed before birth. It is continuous throughout his life. It applies to the psalmist in each stage of his life, including as a child and as an adult.

Third, in striking contrast, the notion that all lives are sacred is clearly refuted in verse 19. The apparently compassionate psalmist turns out to want to kill other people who don't behave/ believe the way he wishes them to, and he believes his god will support him in doing so.

So fourth, in spite of being a great poet, the guy who has these kinds of thoughts is psychotic. This is the al qaeda template. It justifies the murder of non-conformist thinkers. The view these days is that you let folks believe what they wish about god and worship or not worship, depending upon their choice. This is not what the psalmist believes.

This leaves me wondering what Jesus himself might have said about the embryos, foetuses, babies of Romans. Would he have cared like a modern abortion hater? Or would he have not cared, like the psalmist and his god whose concern was for the adherents of Judaism?

Paul applied christian ideas to non-Jews. Jesus not so clearly. He ought to have clarified a matter that is so fundamental.

After reading this psalm, I might just as easily wonder if you believe it justifies pure hatred, and the murder of non-Jews. As is often the case, the bible has wise parts and not such wise parts.

Here's most of the rest of the song.

3Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.

4For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.

5Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

11If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

13For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

17How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

18If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

19Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.

20For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.

21Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

22I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

23Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:

24And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.




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The above is a reply to the following message:
Re: Abortion
By: xcslewis
in ALEA
Wed, 27 Jun 18 12:18 AM
Msg. 25848 of 53075

Perhaps he thought it was previously addressed elsewhere.

13. For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.

14. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.

15. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.

16. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.


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