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Re: meanwhile obama 

By: Cactus Flower in ALEA | Recommend this post (1)
Tue, 08 Dec 15 10:25 PM | 116 view(s)
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Msg. 17777 of 54959
(This msg. is a reply to 17776 by DigSpace)

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I take the point. If it wasn't for the fact that ISIS seems to have just turned on the spigot of international terrorism which dilutes the stats, I might be more relaxed.

Here's how I would argue the opposite.

How many American lives will it take for you to acknowledge the problem? Another 14? 140? 2,977? What is the meaningful percentage?

If you were to say, but it hasn't happened yet ... I agree.

And don't you think it is better to run ahead of the curve? So that the casualties are prevented before they occur.

The problems of Europe are surely coming to the USA. Nothing inoculates Americans from this problem. We can all see the recent expansion of terror from Boko Haram in Nigeria around the Moslem Crescent, through Tunisia, Algeria, Libya, Egypt and Iraq to ISIS in Syria. These groups have infiltrated Moslem communities in Europe with hundreds joining ISIS from countries such as France, Belgium and the UK and turned them into terrorists too. Many such terrorists have crossed the Aegean, the Mediterranean, the Bosphorus and the Pillars of Hercules and entered Europe. Europe has tried harder than America to accept Moslem immigrants. It has more of them. It has been running the same multiculturalism model in various shades. It hasn't worked.

Surely the risk is manifest. Heck, these guys were devious enough to infiltrate the marriage waiver programme. America is next. When the risk is clearly present, you must act.

Obama's model is a glorified version of doing nothing much. Every avenue of action is closed. Sitting ducks come to mind.

For myself, I thought Bush's Afghanistan adventure was justified and it aroused global support. Iraq was the disaster. I think Obama could lever the necessary support to create a coalition to wipe out ISIS. I don't care that this "is what they want". It is what I think will work that matters to me.


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The above is a reply to the following message:
Re: meanwhile obama
By: DigSpace
in ALEA
Tue, 08 Dec 15 10:13 PM
Msg. 17776 of 54959

history, even in its making, always lacks a control (the experiment kind). We lack a negative control for the current policy, perhaps the current policy is working very well, that in its absence millions have perished in all sorts of timelines we are not in (as a consequence of policy).

One could argue, e.g., that the Obama administrations policy for safeguarding US diplomatic stations oversees "doesn't seem to work" on the grounds of Bengazi. We can draw all sorts of comparisons and depending on our persuasion argue that it does or does not work, but anything resembling saying it does work would have to include that it working will include some failures.

In American terms, on balance, a very very very small minority of fatalities as a consequence of gun violence is a consequence of ISIS policy. If we assume that it is a goal of the US to curb gun violence, one might argue that of all the sources of gun violence US policy is most successful as it pertains to curbing gun violence sourced directly or indirectly from ISIS.

The same likely cannot be said for Europe, particularly France (unless overall gun violence is much higher than I assume).

In France ISIS is a primary killer of people. In the US it barely scratches the surface necessitating the use of several decimal placeholders before one can enter a value.

Certainly e.g. a large ground pretense that pries the land away from ISIS is alternative strategy but I am not inclined to do it simply because it is different and the current strategy "doesn't seem to work".

What is the criteria for it working? If one person a century is killed in the US directly or indirectly by ISIS, would that be success or failure? Or one a decade, or a year, or 7 a century or 9 a day? Certainly San Bernarndino is tragic and bad, as were the Paris Attacks, and it would seem that (particularly in the case of France) that a good argument for failure could be made, but this is a road where one needs to define success (IMO) as it is the lack of defining success (e.g. Viet Nam, Iraq II, etc.) that affords paths that never survive even a casual cost-benefit analysis after the fact.


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