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Re: Copernican Revolution etc** 

By: Cactus Flower in ALEA | Recommend this post (2)
Tue, 28 Jul 15 5:32 AM | 170 view(s)
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Msg. 17213 of 54959
(This msg. is a reply to 17211 by Armp)

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This is a useful post. Thanks.

I think I have realised something. You and I aren't entirely arguing about the same thing.

I don't deny for a second that members of the church were engaged in scientific things around the time of Galileo, as well as before and afterwards. And indeed, I wouldn't deny that the Church was the key repository of education in the Middle Ages when almost no one else was in that business in the Latin West.

But that's a different thing from saying (i) that the Church also destroyed all sorts of things it didn't like, (ii) that it sought to frustrate lines of enquiry which challenged its authority and (iii) that this resulted in the build up of all sorts of pressures (and these developed into things like the Reformation and the argument with a science free of a religious preference).

And of course, it's a long period of history in which lots of things were happening.

Here's a picture of what I think broadly fills the gap between Nicaea and Galileo - it is the encroachment of an absolutist idea of Rome's authority and the reaction to this which necessarily causes schisms with those Rome sought authority over.

The Council of Nicaea is a reasonable starting point. It is when Constantine raised the Church up and put it on the path to its ascendancy. It is when the justification of a dogmatic idea of Christian religion was given its form. As I wrote earlier, people are at their most dangerous when they feel an inviolable sense of self-righteousness. The claim of high virtue has justified much of the worst evil in human history. Religion has the ability to generate this behaviour (but it is not the only source for it).

From the Council of Nicaea when Constantine was emperor, to the end of Justinian's rule, the destruction of pagan culture was vast, savage and deliberate. Some of the destruction was done by Germanic tribes. But an enormous amount was also done by emperors, bishops and mobs. Nearly every element of imperial pagan culture was destroyed in this 250 year period. One of Constantine's first actions as a "Christian" emperor was to sack the Oracle of Apollo at Dydima and torture the pagan priests to death. During the remainder of the early imperial Christian period, amongst other things, the Serapeum library in Alexandria was destroyed, the Neo-Platonic school in Athens was closed, Hypatia was murdered, Jovian ordered the destruction of the library at Antioch, the Mysteries of Samothrace were closed down, the Olympic Games were stopped and non-Christians were called by the emperor Theodosius “loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind”. This is a small sample of a large enterprise.

The entire progress of classical science and literature almost disappeared during this period not to be seen again for a thousand years. There is the odd exception - in which a person like Isidore of Seville or the venerable Bede pops up. But it is pretty clear that any ancient works that survived were confined within libraries to which only ecclesiastical folks had access. And the ideas which emerged from the church conformed with church doctrine. The anathemas, index and institutions of the church also required it.

When the Western empire fell, the Pope emerged from the barbarian destruction as a powerful figure. The papacy was a political organism seeking to expand its authority and to restrain competing interests. A famous document (and convenient forgery), the Donation of Constantine, made the Pope's claim explicit. It granted the Pope "power, and dignity of glory, and vigour, and honour imperial [and] supremacy as well over the four principal sees, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Constantinople, as also over all the churches of God in the whole earth."

The theology the church promoted was entirely consistent with its politics. It was a theology in which Rome asserted control over all of Christendom. This led in time to the theological schism with Eastern orthodoxy.

So what you are seeing in the intellectual argument is a papal apparatus designed to build a theological shell around a political claim. You see the same kind of argument with competing ideas in theology as you do in science later on. One that bears some resemblance - as an argument over authority - is the dispute between the pope and the Byzantine Patriarch Photius.

This claim to authority rankled, of course, with those over whom the Roman church claimed dominion.

"My dearest brother, we do not deny to the Roman Church the primacy amongst the five sister Patriarchates; and we recognize her right to the most honourable seat at an Ecumenical Council. But she has separated herself from us by her own deeds, when through pride she assumed a monarchy which does not belong to her office." - Nicetas, Archbishop of Nicomedia in the twelfth century.

She assumed a monarchy which does not belong to her office.

There's the issue. The church imposed its monarchy on science as well. It was, of course, delighted by the science of confirmation. It wasn't so delighted by a science of refutation, in which the church lost control of the debate. In which folks argued things of which the church didn't approve. In which ideas didn't conform with the notion of papal authority and intercession between the temporal and spiritual worlds.

Really, the beginning of the end was the wave of classical knowledge that was retrieved from the Eastern empire and from Islam from the twelfth century onwards. The cat was out of the bag. At first, folks like Thomas Aquinas were able to tether the philosophies of the ancients to contemporary ideas of christian philosophy. But the new universities modelled on Islamic schools were democratising education. Throw in the printing press and technologies like the telescope and fresh minds were going to join the conversation and existing ideas were bound to be subject to review.

In a sense, the Copernican universe challenged the entire medieval church theology. And as I suggested above, the theology justified the church's politics. Galileo's argument - which said that earth was not central and that nature expressed God's creative will as well as a book - damaged the pope's claim to be the Vicar of Christ. But why should Galileo not make his argument - at least as seen using a modern lens?

As the Greek East had already said, Rome assumed a monarchy which does not belong to her office.

In the end, the church lost the monarchy which it had wrongly claimed.

ps I don't submit to the catholic argument that the issue wasn't about heliocentrism. I have provided the text of the inquistion's judgement which explicitly states the issue was Galileo's advocacy of the heresy of the Copernican model. There would be no need to bring Copernicus into the discussion other than because his model of the universe was in play.

pps I don't think one needs to be sceptical of a catholic simply because they are a catholic, but scholars come with different qualities. The article you linked was nicely written but it assumes the reasonableness of the papacy's monarchical rights over the scientific conversation. Like Nicetas, I demur.


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The above is a reply to the following message:
Re: Copernican Revolution etc**
By: Armp
in ALEA
Mon, 27 Jul 15 9:29 PM
Msg. 17211 of 54959

Your observation that I am not solid in my knowledge of certain areas is accepted without feeling insulted in the least. Why should I feel insulted by a fact? The fact is that you feel I’m rather thin in knowledge. It is also a fact that the traditional Galileo story is rather contaminated with myths. No insult there. One only needs to look at fresh (post 1990) historical investigations into the Galileo affair to understand that historians have modified the story.

I do tend to get right to the point and unfortunately in this case it is coming off as condescending and insulting. However, you should recognize that earlier I said I originally accepted the same story about Galileo and the Church’s conflict with science and over time was confused by the evident contradiction. Eventually historians revealed a different and more consistent, but still sufficiently messy, story. Much of what you cite I had already once accepted because that is what was taught pre-1990. No reason for me to go looking it up. Then scholarship began examining the traditional view and weeding out the myths – apparently a huge project.

Having to provide citations for each thought or “fact” cited is essentially asking for a dissertation. This Galileo subject is not my area of focus. So for me it would be a super big effort and I doubt I have enough years left in my bones to complete the project and even then it would lack credibility.

I hunted around my library to see if there was a book covering substantially the Galileo subject in both content and context. I stopped looking upon finding the first suitable one, so there may be others and worthy rebuttals may exist that I’m not aware of.

The Sun In The Church
Cathedrals as Solar Observatories
J. L. Heilbron

Harvard University Press 1999 (NYT notable book of the year)

Heilbron is (at the time of publication) a professor of history at Berkeley and senior research fellow at Oxford

From back cover:
Between 1650 and 1750, four catholic churches were the best solar observatories in the world . . . the book illuminates the historical niches in which science and mathematics thrived – protected and financed by the church.

From New Yorker review (cited on back cover)
In this elegant work . . . Heilbron, upending common views of the Church’s relationship to science after it condemned Galileo, shows that Rome handsomely supported astronomical studies . . .

From NYT book review (cited on back cover)
. . . Heilbron shows that the Catholic Church served as perhaps the largest patron of sophisticated astronomical research throughout the controversies . . . (and) turns the table on tired stories of the war between science and religion.

Note: I didn’t study the book. I read it over a decade ago and strictly for pleasure. This means that I did not outline it or read it a second or third time and most likely habitually skimmed portions of it to fit my time availability. I like to read about architecture as a diversion. Galileo was merely a side note for me.

Looking further I avoided reviewing my journal articles since these are indexed for other purposes and for most people costly to acquire their own copy. So, I did a quick internet search to see what would pop up. Note: I’m not affirming that this stuff is unbiased or reliable – it does come off the net. But, it seems to match more reliable journal articles.


From a Catholic source (and therefore to be read with some circumspection)

http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/controversy/common-misconceptions/the-galileo-affair.html

From the header of the article:
The Galileo affair is the one stock argument used to show that science and Catholic dogma are antagonistic. While Galileo's eventual condemnation was certainly unjust a close look at the facts puts to rout almost every aspect of the reigning Galileo legend.

Science Continued Alive and Well:
To support my comment that science was historically alive and healthy in Catholicism I found the following in a blog where someone posted the list. I noted the comment on Bacon since it supports a statement I made that systematic theology lead to the development of the scientific method and therefore science as we know it today. The date is well in advance of Galileo being on the scene. I think I have a journal article touching on the subject of systematic theology forming the basis for the scientific method but unless you really need it I’d rather not spend the time digging for it. To me, what happened hundreds of years ago is not pertinent to my subject matter.

From the blog mentioned above:
Catholic scientists in the past:
Nicolaus Copernicus
Gregor Mendel
Pierre Gassendi
Blaise Pascal
Marin Mersenne
Louis Pasteur
André-Marie Ampère
Antoine Lavoisier
Roger Bacon (c. 1214–1294) – Franciscan friar and early advocate of the scientific method

Alexis Carrel (1873–1944) – Awarded the Nobel Prize in Medicine for pioneering vascular suturing techniques
Albert Claude (1899–1983) – Awarded the Nobel Prize in Medicine for his contributions to cytology
Christopher Clavius (1538–1612) – Jesuit who was the main architect of the Gregorian calendar
Carl Ferdinand Cori (1896–1984) – Shared the 1947 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine with his wife for their discovery of the Cori cycle
Gerty Cori (1896–1957) – Biochemist who was the first American woman win a Nobel Prize in science (1947)[15]
Nicolaus Copernicus (1473–1543) – First person to formulate a comprehensive heliocentric cosmology
Johann Baptist Cysat (c.1587–1657) – Jesuit priest known for his study of comets
Alberto Dou (1915-2009), Spanish Jesuit priest who was president of the Royal Society of Mathematics, member of the Royal Academy of Natural, Physical, and Exact Sciences, and one of the foremost mathematicians of his country.
Jean-Baptiste Dumas (1800–1884) – Chemist who established new values for the atomic mass of thirty elements
John Eccles (1903–1997) – Awarded the Nobel Prize in Medicine for his work on the synapse[16]
Gerhard Ertl (1936– ) – German physicist who won the 2007 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for his studies of chemical processes on solid surfaces[17]
Stephan Endlicher (1804–1849) – Botanist who formulated a major system of plant classification
Pierre de Fermat (1601–1665) – Number theorist who contributed to the early development of calculus
Enrico Fermi (1901–1954) – Awarded the Nobel Prize in physics for his work in induced radioactivity
Léon Foucault (1819–186Cool – Invented the Foucault pendulum to measure the effect of the earth's rotation
Pierre Gassendi (1592–1655) – French astronomer and mathematician who studied the transit of Mercury and named the aurora borealis
Jean-Baptiste Lamarck (1744–1829) – French naturalist, biologist and academic whose theories on evolution preceded those of Darwin
Antoine Lavoisier (1743–1794) – Father of modern chemistry[27]

Craig Mello (1960– ) – American biologist who was awarded the 2006 Nobel Prize, with Andrew Fire, for the discovery of RNA interference.[31]
Gregor Mendel (1822–1884) – Father of genetics
Marin Mersenne (1588–164Cool – Father of acoustics and mathematician for whom Mersenne primes are named.

John von Neumann (1903–1957) – Hungarian-born American mathematician and polymath[37] who converted to Catholicism[38]
William of Ockham (c.1288–c.134Cool – Franciscan Friar known for Ockham's Razor

Vladimir Prelog (1906–199Cool – Croatian-Swiss organic chemist, winner of the 1975 Nobel Prize for chemistry.
Jules Henri Poincaré (1854–1912) – French mathematician, theoretical physicist, engineer and philosopher of science
John Polanyi (1929– ) – Canadian chemist who won the 1986 Nobel Prize for his research in chemical kinetics.[45]
Michael Polanyi (1891–1976) – Hungarian polymath who made contributions to physical chemistry, economics, and philosophy.

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (1881-1955), Jesuit priest, theologian and renowned paleontologist.
Evangelista Torricelli (1608–1647) – Inventor of the barometer


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