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Re: Copernican Revolution etc**

By: Cactus Flower in ALEA | Recommend this post (0)
Sat, 25 Jul 15 9:35 PM | 245 view(s)
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Msg. 17204 of 54959
(This msg. is a reply to 17203 by Armp)

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hi armp,

have you noticed you begin every post with a put-down?

is it that you assume you can talk down to me? or do you think i will be persuaded that your judgement is more impressive because you assume authority for yourself on this subject? i thought these things were earned and not presumed.

just wondering where that comes from. i've ignored it previously, but it's an odd habit. it makes me think less of your own ability to self-reflect so i am wondering why you would employ a device that is self-defeating.

i am not persuaded by your historical arguments or your method. your knowledge of medieval history looks thin to me. you bring up the point about Muslims, Jews and Catholics cooperating prior to the year 1000 AD and bringing their knowledge to Europe again. let's start here with the normal historical requirement of asking for some evidence of an assertion and move forward from there.

"Physical observations of the world we live in has a long long history. Due to the collaboration of Muslims, Jews and Catholics the remnants of that history was bought into Europe via the Catholic Church prior to the year 1000." Which remnants of physical observations? What history? Where in Europe? Which Muslims, Jews and Catholics? Why the exclusion of Byzantine orthodoxy and "doubters"? How was the Catholic Church involved? Why were these observations not present in Europe previously? If you have none of this knowledge, which historians have you consulted?

The study of history and the making of a historical theory requires more than assertions. It requires evidence. This is why some people say history has things in common with science. It is also a normal courtesy of the study of history that you provide facts for others to check.

You will notice I have done so for each point I have made. This provides you with a point to review and to dispute if you wish.

So I also recommend that you address my points and the evidence I have provided rather than simply suggesting they are generally wrong because you say so. Tell me why, one point at a time. Starting with the implications of the argument at Nicaea, perhaps, because that is my earliest reference point.

Or simply admit you don't have the foundation and breadth of knowledge to pursue (and certainly not to judge) the argument, which at this point I suspect. A theory of history isn't easy to drum up quickly. It makes sense to build it from a set of resources.

I think your general thesis about observations is interesting and worth the discussion. I understand that you are trying to extrapolate backwards from your experience. But I think you'd maybe be better off asking for my help in refining your idea and seeing if I can help build the factual basis for it in the historical record than asserting something big using vague evidence which doesn't carry the burden.

In the search for origins of ideas in the late classical and medieval periods, I am reasonably knowledgeable and might be able to help. But you are not going to be able to get very far if you ignore things that contradict your theory and just repeat unsupported statements.

The notion that the catholic church in the late middle ages-renaissance period was both a proponent of theological (and certain other sorts of) knowledge and the source of frustration of competing secular types of knowledge isn't controversial and you'd need to make a very strong argument to set it aside. But you might make something of the argument about observation in science and trace it back - perhaps into the dispute between the church and Galileo. Maybe in the same way Steven J Gould likes to show why other people who had theories no one believes any more nevertheless had a reason to believe those things at that time. Your argument that Galileo's constructive evidence was weaker than we currently assume was a useful point - as it was Kepler's mathematics based on Tycho's observations which was the sharp edge of the heliocentric spear.

But Galileo's telescope was extremely destructive of the competing world system and the theology supplied by people like Thomas Aquinas which was related to it.

The church's treatment of Galileo's movements, communications and ideas is instructive of a restrictive role that fortunately we no longer have to live under in the West.


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The above is a reply to the following message:
Re: Copernican Revolution etc
By: Armp
in ALEA
Sat, 25 Jul 15 8:56 PM
Msg. 17203 of 54959

Alea

There are truths and myths entangled in the Galileo affair. This entangled view is what you term the traditional view. As a respectable thinker you should make a slightly greater effort to seek out the truth.

Those who gave the matter any attention know that Galileo was unfairly treated, mistreated and this injustice is not justified by his suddenly wanting to be a theologian and impose a particular theological point of view by leveraging his popularity. No need to repeat that angle going forward.

Physical observations of the world we live in has a long long history. Due to the collaboration of Muslims, Jews and Catholics the remnants of that history was bought into Europe via the Catholic Church prior to the year 1000. Then there emerged, well before Galileo but centuries later, a rather impressive transformation. For the first time in history all of this "science" was given a rigorous system of analysis. For this transformation to take place many common concepts had to be extinguished - casting spells as an example as well as good luck charms. The Church in purifying the sciences also had to deal with the charlatans (bad priest) who would use this science to impress the less educated (just about everyone) and extract money or favors. If someone can predict what the heavenly bodies are doing then certainly they can predict what I should do to avoid issues or gain advantages - so the "logic" went. This transformation of disparate facts, having often mystical interpretations, for the first time in history, over a period of centuries, was organized because of the systematic approach of the theologians. Read a Quadrivium to get a sense of this struggle.

The above does not imply that science belongs in the Church but only someone who bought into the traditional view or a bigot would argue that the Church was opposed to science. Hospitals do not belong in the Church either but it is difficult to avoid recognizing that the Church as the prime organizer of medieval society founded hospitals, universities and other beneficial structures that are now common.

Professional historians know that one should never attribute to a belief system what can easily be attributable to human nature. Many people in all kinds of societies (secular, corporate, democratic, nazi etc) have been brutally abused via the legal system or judgement system. This abuse is more simply attributed to the nature of human beings. Less than two minutes of thinking would convince any reasonable person that no society, even scientific review boards, would be left standing if they had to have a history free of any abuse. Philosophers are also famous for saying that one should never judge a philosophy based on the behavior of its adherents. Judge it on its own merits.

What makes the Galileo affair really bizarre is that the separation of the physical sciences from the theological sciences was nearly complete well before this trial. So, it is not exactly a modern conclusion to say "my argument, of course, is that the church should have had no standing" in judging this affair. Plenty of academics at the time expressed wonderment about what the heck was Galileo trying to do in arguing with the pope about science when it was already recognized that the Church concerned itself with theology and religion as well as other social responsibilities. Over time it became clear that Galileo wanted to argue theology - not his specialty.

As a professional manager I often had to deal with technical people who use some superior knowledge to badger and intimidate others in the group. There was a well established scientific forum for Galileo to argue out his science. There were many academics who agreed with him and many who did not. BTW - there were catholics on both sides of the argument and you seem to only want to take to task those on the wrong side. Whereas I see in Galileo, the man, someone who took his recent observations and saw, so he thought, a wonderful opportunity to rush ahead and badger another group. He was recognized as a mean spirited person to the very end.

There is one glaring problem with your thesis - it all fits together too nicely. When dealing with reality, this nicety only happens when one chooses to bury contrary evidence.

To further avoid ambiguity one should not confuse human nature with culture with religion with theology with the Church even if they are all Catholic. These words are hardly related, although they do interface, and certainly not interchangeable. Even today the average Catholic churchgoer has no idea what theology is or does.

I think we exhausted the Galileo review. Your presumption, there is little evidence, that science had to fight it way out of the Church is not something I'm confused about.

I'm more interested in understanding what is a science and why doesn't theology count as a science. I'm still haven't gained clarity on the matter.

BTW - in modern science the norm is to never design an experiment to prove one's point of view. Instead, design experiments to get at the truth, let the data speak for itself. Otherwise, one blinds themselves to contrary evidence.



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