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Re: Science - what is it?

By: Cactus Flower in ALEA | Recommend this post (0)
Fri, 24 Jul 15 12:40 AM | 182 view(s)
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Msg. 17191 of 54959
(This msg. is a reply to 17190 by Armp)

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hi armp,

you are welcome to go down the path you wish to, whether it be historical or theological.

my first post about al ghazali was intended to describe how an innocent-seeming religious premise can frustrate the development of valuable and apparently unrelated ideas for a very long time.

i see this problem emerge in christianity during the dispute between arius and athanasius, which was resolved at the council of nicaea in, i think, 325 AD.

athanasius' victory - which led to the declaration more-or-less that jesus equals god (homo-ousion rather than homoi-ousion) - was a big step in turning a conversation into division and splitting christianity between orthodoxy and heresy. the historian edward gibbon and the roman emperor julian both saw christianity as ruining the roman martial virtues and setting in train the end of the roman empire. i see christianity as destroying the entire wide-open philosophy of the polytheistic roman era and replacing it with something narrow and restrictive which it took the development of technology and techniques of careful observation to revoke.

the effect of defining orthodoxy in strict terms (you cannot argue with a person who has the substance of god) was to put a cork into heterodox views for a millenium. the restriction on thinking is neatly encapsulated in the forced retraction and incarceration of galileo, but the theme is easily observable in the treatent of giordano bruno and continues (in slightly different garb) at least until the time of darwin. but as curiosity emerges, a universe defined around mankind gradually retreats in favour of an indifferent universe in which life fortunately emerges on this little planet, albeit perhaps as pond scum!

so the far end of catholic inquisition and taxation was the release, provided by secular thinking, of various kinds: from politics, through science, to law.

that is not to say that individual catholics did not participate in science. but the church is an organism which attempted to explain the universe with its biblical narrative for a very long period; it competed with modern science; it tried to silence it; it lost because science explained things better and the word got around.

religion changed as a result. popes stopped trying to tell folks they could explain life, the universe and everything better than other people. it took a role that is more concerned with things like morality and redemption. steven jay gould describes science and faith as operating within different domains or magisteria. but i think this is a view of science and religion which is fundamentally modern. (it is also controversial amongst scientists but let's set that aside).

it seems to me that this retreat of religion towards the realms beyond scientific enquiry hasn't yet occurred with islam. it claims a legal, scientific, political and religious territory which is fated to cause difficulty.

but just because religious explanations of the universe turned out to be weak doesn't mean scientific ones replace one stone tablet with another. the processes of science mean that it is constantly changing its explanations. its truths are always contingent. science is one way in which we expand human curiosity along the endless frontier of knowledge. there are others. i like a human curiosity which is unrestrained by religious dogma.

i am curious to learn how you come to the view that theology is a science, rather than merely a study. hopefully you don't need me to accept your definition of science in order to explain your position. i am happy to listen and give you my opinions. i am slightly worried that you are going to insert god where uncertainty and the difficulty of measurement currently reside. that is an argument which has been much discussed and you don't need me to address it, as many folks much smarter than i am have already done so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZFErADIY8E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRHefbIgKxk

but why not have at it.


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The above is a reply to the following message:
Re: Science - what is it?
By: Armp
in ALEA
Thu, 23 Jul 15 11:24 PM
Msg. 17190 of 54959

A lot of territory was covered in your response even though the subject is “what is science”. Your statement that science in the middle ages has come to mean something different than the term today is one I also subscribe to and is the source of my inquiry. What is science today and also how to engage those who are unable to let go of a distant meaning of the term, so much so, that they are now encumbered by it - “the ability to change is necessary in seeking to approach truth”

I purposely did not define ‘science’ for good reasons. The old way of understanding science was in its method – the scientific method. This was fine when dealing with falling apples and useless in much of current scientific studies where the object cannot be seen or measured and the model cannot be validated by direct observation. Being immersed in science today it appears to me that the proof of usefulness of a concept is in its ability to predict, not in divining a plausible explanation of the underlying mechanism.

In practice, explaining the underlying mechanism is something that emerges lagging well behind the leading edge, not at the leading edge. One of my discoveries occurred in 1996 and was put to good use due to effective development of predictability. Late in 2013 one of my scientist finally figured out the underlying mechanism and could also explain away a few defects in my model. BTW – there is no way to directly observe his model. Its strength is in an improved (broadened in this case) ability to predict outcomes in new territories where my model failed to make useful predictions.

I employ people with keen observational skills to discover the leading edge, to keep pushing the boundary. These people are never PhDs and some are high school graduates. Then the PhDs follow behind with an explanation that sometimes is immediate and at other times takes many years. The success of the PhDs (called scientists) allows my engineers to better apply and refine applying the results thereby leading to new technology. This is not an exercise in semantics, it is in understanding the meaning of words used to describe activities and in understanding the utility of the various types of specialist.

My initial reason for engaging you in dialogue is to help me sort out my own confusion in this area. I am frequently exposed to people who insists on adherence to ancient and apparently primitive beliefs regarding science and then mindlessly ignore the contradiction that most of science does not fit their presumptions.

I’m already benefitting from your replies and earlier thoughts.

I’m tending to think that science, the modern stuff, should be defined as a systematic study of anything that has resulted in an improved ability to be predictive. Some old guy predicting the weather from pain in his joints is not science even if predictive. Until the studies results in an improved ability to predict it is simply a study. The method of study does not make it a science. I’ve seen too many great models / explanations and experienced too many battles over these models. What I often saw had more to do with ego than with clarifying results.

I’m anxious to get on to the original topic “theology as science” and we can go there if our use of the term 'science' is somewhat similar. Otherwise, we are talking past one another and wasting time.

But, perhaps it is better to first spend a few words on Galileo and the concept of how science liberated us from the tyranny of religious dogmatism.

Three options – what is next?


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