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Re: Science - what is it? (edit)

By: Cactus Flower in ALEA | Recommend this post (0)
Thu, 23 Jul 15 6:35 PM | 233 view(s)
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Msg. 17189 of 54959
(This msg. is a reply to 17187 by Armp)

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i spent a term at university listening to an art historian ask the question about one created object after another - "is it art?" i learnt then that precise meanings of words often make discussions hard. at some point you discover folks mean different things by them.

what we mean by a word also changes over time. once, the word science merely meant knowledge, as art meant skill. we are moving forward from that starting point. science can mean one thing in the seventeenth century and something different now, and again tomorrow.

sometimes a definition becomes so stretched by time that it can take away a useful and precise meaning. folks want a word for something they are doing and borrow one that already exists instead of making a new one. now the category has a broader meaning. trying to define something like history as an art and psychology as a science leaves some characteristics of each discipline unsatisfied and others seemingly in the wrong category. is the discussion of love science? perhaps, if it involves the vibration of molecules, or if it is a behaviour we can bottle. perhaps not if it is the subject of a poem.

a word might also be used in different ways depending on the context. for instance, academic institutions split the world between arts and sciences and end up making categories of either-or when in some cases neither or a bit of both is more appropriate. i guess that is why we have sub-categories. economics has its hypotheses, it has its observations, it has its measurements (econometrics) but also has its unpredictable variables (eg psychological factors in economic decisions). you distinguished hard from soft sciences. sometimes economics is also described as a social science: the intelligence of human beings gives results a variety. so economics has things in common with disciplines that deal with non-intelligent subjects and things which don't. and so on. they are lumped together under category headings and folks graduate with an arts degree or a science degree depending upon the discipline. at my university, i believe folks received arts or science economics degrees depending upon whether they entered the programme from the arts or the sciences faculty!

sometimes a discipline that has seemed obedient to rules moves into a zone of uncertainty. perhaps that is true of certain elements of physics which seem to have duality at their quantum extreme. quantum physics maybe has more in common with economics than the original discipline defined by folks like galileo and newton. all things equal is a key qualifier.

so when you investigate the meanings of words, you can run into difficulties if you prefer them to be exceedingly precise. at any point in time, the meaning of a word is always a bit fuzzy. a bit like a particle, perhaps?

or put another way, precise definitions are always tricky. especially on the frontier and around the fringes of words. in this way, science is not much different from pornography. like the judge said, you know it when you see it.

even so, i think there's value in the type of method by which knowledge results from a process in which a theory is capable of disproof via measurement. we can call that science, or we can separate the meaning from the word and call it abc123. abc123 is a good method of approaching truth where the subject-matter is measurable. things which are not measurable are not abc123.

you describe a method which we might call xyz123. xyz123 has some resemblance to abc123, but also some differences. both processes have their utility. it sounds like you are saying xyz123 is appropriate for your discipline.

both models, it appears to me, permit the evolution of ideas. both allow the rejection of ideas that don't work.

at least when talking about science, we seem to have observations, hypotheses and predictions in common, even if you have reservations over measurement. let's see where your definition takes us.

i am guessing back to theology for which the absence of measurement in the definition of science might prove useful.

whereas for me, it looks like we are headed to a place where the word science itself probably loses its usefulness. is theology like chemistry? not really. if you expand the category so far, the definition balloon bursts. but what matters is not so much "is theology science?" as "is theology a discipline that is useful for divining truth?" or does it mostly just get in the way of other methods by either minimally requiring the existence of a god/ prime mover or, more frustratingly, insisting on adherence to ancient and apparently primitive beliefs?

the church (via the inquisition) in the era of galileo and the fatwas of islam equally have claimed the right to curtail people's curiosity in favour of religious dogma. we can learn from what happened with galileo. we can observe the effect of dogmatic thinking on the creativity that is permitted within islamic societies. submission is a form of servitude. the ability to change is necessary in seeking to approach truth. the ability to reject what doesn't work is also essential. when you curtail this process of alternating destruction and creativity, you doom a society to sterility.


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The above is a reply to the following message:
Science - what is it?
By: Armp
in ALEA
Thu, 23 Jul 15 8:26 AM
Msg. 17187 of 54959


Instead of proceeding as originally intended, having read your additional posting during my ‘absence’, what constitutes science seems more important for facilitating this discussion.

Per your post Mon, 20 Jul 15 12:43 AM states “Whereas science is defined by … sequence - provisional hypotheses founded atop supportive observations and where measurement is possible, mathematics, followed by attempted disproofs and/or the discovery of environmental limitations, leading to fresh hypotheses.” This is well composed but as a comprehensive statement describing the sciences it is inadequate. Actually this description is, in practical terms, only true for the physical sciences and then only true in a way often not related to reality.

In my own work, which is not atypical in the physical sciences, there are no instruments capable of directly measuring the particles of interest. Instead various instruments are use, none of which are adequate for measurements, from which we infer what is being measured and upon comparing the various outcomes we further make judgment based conclusions.

In the traditional scientific method approach, the researcher isolates what is to be investigated to simplify the situation. This means eliminating as much of reality as possible so that the entire contents of the black box is known and one can therefore assume that all causes and effects are related to the subject experiment. Young people might assume that the conclusions hold true when brought back into the real world – they would be wrong.

So, in my work, I can’t measure what I want to characterize and I can’t observe what is operative and instead I can only formulate a model, an explanation of behavior, and from that model make decisions that can sometimes leads to progress in predictability. Very often, years later, I find that the breakthroughs that were obtained are not properly explained by the models that were adopted at the time (termed 'tracking the wrong variable'). Our work is highly uncertain. It does not bother me that I can’t see what I think is the operative factor that makes things happen.

What I was taught was to forget the “scientific method” since it is too simplistic (not related to reality because most of the real environment is eliminated in highly controlled experimentation). Instead, formulate a model and from this model make a projection about outcomes that could be expected from this or that set of conditions. Then sequentially assume each of all of the possible outcomes in a thought experiment. From this analysis see if there is one or more trials that could be conducted that would indicate if the model is close to reality. Do not test the hypothesis, instead, extrapolate further out and again do the thought experiment for each set of assumed outcomes. Now seek to identify a trial that would indicate if the assumptions are somewhat true or blatantly false. This approach avoids the simplicity of the false world of controlled, highly purified, experimentation and keeps the entire effort grounded in reality. The traditional scientific method will eventually arrive at the same result but will takes several generations longer to get there.

The soft sciences (economics, psychology and others) do not admit to controlled, purified, experimentation or even any experimentation. Measurements are largely impossible to conduct. How does one measure love or emotional stress or even craziness? Yet the fields of investigation are still termed science and accepted as such.

In the sciences, my opinion, the key to progress is ‘observation that discerns significance’. It is not enough to observe. One must observe in a way that significance is realized and consolidated into a hypothesis. Everyone can see the stars or the moon moving at night. Few can see that some motions have significance to certain questions. Once the motions of significance to a particular question are observed one can then hypothesize a model even if what is hypothesized cannot be seen or measured. The validity of the model comes from its ability to be correctly predictive.


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