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Re: obama not to be trusted with building blocks of western values 

By: Cactus Flower in ALEA | Recommend this post (1)
Sat, 25 Jan 14 9:12 PM | 90 view(s)
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Msg. 15160 of 54959
(This msg. is a reply to 15159 by Cactus Flower)

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Just to reiterate - it isn't that surveillance is illegal. It is that surveillance of people who have given no cause for suspicion is.

Otherwise, what the heck is the fourth amendment for?

Targetted surveillance of folks about whom there is reasonable suspicion looks permissible.

Broad surveillance is precisely the thing the fourth amendment rules out.

And creating records about everyone for subsequent use is clearly an element of surveillance under any reasonable definition.

If such records existed for some other purpose, maybe their storage would be justifiable. But actually, they have no other purpose. And therefore they are held explicitly for surveillance uses. Pretending otherwise would be sophistry.

The key reason for the secrecy of the programme has surely been that the US government knew their judgement of what is lawful would not bear scrutiny.


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The above is a reply to the following message:
obama not to be trusted with building blocks of western values
By: Cactus Flower
in ALEA
Sat, 25 Jan 14 7:00 PM
Msg. 15159 of 54959

"Obama has no right to sit on the sidelines until the high court tells him what the Constitution means. The president is under an independent obligation to determine that his actions are legitimate. And, as a former professor of constitutional law, he is in a good position to explain why the NSA isn't violating the amendment's demand that the government describe the persons and things involved in its data grabs. My point has been reinforced further by the federal Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board, which issued a majority report Thursday that emphasized the seriousness of the constitutional issues.

But alas, he simply refuses to talk about the 4th Amendment, asserting that the "challenge … is getting the details right.""

....


"It will take a lot of work from a lot of people to vindicate fundamental Western values. We can't count on Obama to do the job for us."

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/commentary/la-oe-adv-ackerman-nsa-obama-20140126,0,2145502.story#ixzz2rQ1Dcmg0


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