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Re: Zuckerberg on US exceptionalism

By: Cactus Flower in ALEA | Recommend this post (0)
Thu, 19 Sep 13 8:20 PM | 85 view(s)
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Msg. 14748 of 54959
(This msg. is a reply to 14747 by Cactus Flower)

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I was rather struck with clo's point (as I interpreted it) that the different treatment of Americans and non-Americans with respect to surveillance is a new way that Americans feel exceptional. (Sorry, can't find the post)

I think the observation may have some truth to it. But not in a good way. The way in which Obama contentedly distinguished the treatment of Americans and non-Americans for surveillance purposes was the core of the issue America often has with the world.

Everyone can see that the US government acts in its own interest. Like the Greeks, it divides the world between Americans and others. Americans are raised above everyone else. The barbaroi are somehow less important.

So, in cyberspace, the US feels an entitlement to surveil the whole world without limit. Except that it claims to apply a probable cause model to Americans.

Brazil and other countries react. US ISPs and social media companies are shocked, knowing they have their feet planted both inside and outside the US.

The idea of a free and open and universal network is wiped away in a careless phrase. The US turns out to be a lousy guarantor of the freedom and equality of human beings generally, where US interests compete with these essential governing principles.

Nothing is free of America's view of itself. As if it has a mirror which removes the blemishes and prevents introspection. As if, after 9/11, it cannot afford to admit it does not stand a step above the world. As if it cannot admit or allow that it can be hurt.

One day, hopefully, America will remember it is just like other countries. With aspirations, but hopelessly and irredeemably human. And in that submission, the US will find itself loved as every vulnerable entity is. Because love only exists where vulnerability emerges.

Until then, I suspect it will create exactly the monsters it fears.

" 'My own garden is my own garden,' said the Giant; 'any one can understand that, and I will allow nobody to play in it but myself.' So he built a high wall all round it, and put up a notice-board.

TRESPASSERS
WILL BE
PROSECUTED

... Then the Spring came, and all over the country there were little blossoms and little birds. Only in the garden of the Selfish Giant it was still Winter. The birds did not care to sing in it as there were no children, and the trees forgot to blossom."


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The above is a reply to the following message:
Zuckerberg on US exceptionalism
By: Cactus Flower
in ALEA
Thu, 19 Sep 13 8:05 PM
Msg. 14747 of 54959

"“Some of the government’s statements have been particularly unhelpful,” he said. “Like, oh, we only spy on non-Americans.” Zuckerberg pointed out that Facebook is ”an international platform,” and most of its users aren’t American."

This is a critical point. The geographical shape of social media, ISPs and TSPs (US and otherwise) is different from that of governments.

So do we end up with a fractured internet because local sovereigns insist upon undermining user security for folks receiving service from their national carriers both inside and outside their own domain? Or are we going to end up with something more like maritime law for the internet?

Originally people thought the US was the guarantor of certain values of liberty. But in cyberspace it kinda appears the US has chosen local security rather than universal liberty. Read General Hayden's comments for example.

That is something a country is entitled to do. Some posters on this board support that stance.

But it has consequences. It also means the root of trust will have to reflect this new truth. End user rights and interests don't disappear at the frontier. The US isn't that exceptional.


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