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Re: Snowden says etc 

By: Cactus Flower in ALEA | Recommend this post (1)
Tue, 11 Jun 13 8:22 AM | 48 view(s)
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Msg. 13637 of 54959
(This msg. is a reply to 13636 by tkc)

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hi tkc,

folks in my country fought for a thousand years to establish the rights of individuals against the powers of the state.

the foreshadowing of habeas corpus appears in magna carta and the rights in magna carta partly derive from anglo-saxon law. by the time of the civil war, the rights of individuals were the foundation of the argument between the king and the commons. folks looked back to magna carta and derived their customary freedoms from it, as if these freedoms were a fact established by time immemorial.

even a king is subject to law and must submit to its penalties.

we lived through the experience of the Norman yoke - an absolute monarchy - and fought for our individual liberty. through centuries of hardship and gradual progress. in philosophy, through the development of locke's social contract and separation of powers, burke's reverence for existing institutions, hume's ideas about happiness, mill's harm principle. in the courts, as case law gradually revealed the principles of individual freedom and exceptions to it. the english structures of government were ground out over that same long history.

i think we understand that a person who is free and who has committed no crime retains certain rights. one of these rights is the presumption of innocence. another is a right to a certain amount of privacy.

the right to individual liberty has a tremendous power. it lends a person dignity. it cures him of fear. it vests him in the nation's peace.

the notion of habeas corpus was used in the battle over slavery. no slave could be detained illegally because "the air of england has long been too pure for a slave, and every man is free who breathes it."

this is what freedom under the rule of law means and what it does.

the folks who justify surveillance of free men so as to procure information about the guilty have no understanding of history. they must view personal liberty as a mere detail rather than the central fact of western society. the thing that not only makes us different from east germans, for instance, but also gives us our strength.

freedom under the rule of law is what makes a society stable. worthwhile even. what more is there?




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The above is a reply to the following message:
Re: Snowden says etc
By: tkc
in ALEA
Tue, 11 Jun 13 7:37 AM
Msg. 13636 of 54959

Hi Cf, my reaction is similar to what's been expressed. I don't like it but understand why it's being done. O says we should have the conversation. Okay but that's going to be a very long discussion w/ likely no resolution. Snowdon had a lot of guts and stood on his principles. "who's going to guard the guards" is a common question and likely what needs to be figured out. Clo wondered about Cheney in power. My first thought was a parinoid Pres.like Nixon and his "enemies list.". The Gov. needs to defend it's data. Snowdon said 100s-1000s of others could do what he could have but wouldn't. Cyber security must evolve quickly. IMO that's of more immediency than the political arguments. Privacy vs. security. Obviously we're losing our privacy which is certainly making us less secure. What if a Snowdon type was kidnaped and tortured to demonstrate his prowess. Like ~97% of citizens I have no fear that this stuff will ever effect me. It still makes me uncomfortable.
Just my quick ramble FWIW.


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