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Re: Talking points* (added quote)

By: Cactus Flower in ALEA | Recommend this post (0)
Sat, 08 Dec 12 9:10 PM | 66 view(s)
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Msg. 12167 of 54959
(This msg. is a reply to 12164 by DigSpace)

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"borrowed talking points"

the key is in the adjective. and the attitude which often goes with it.

if someone can argue the talking points, marshall fact, these sorts of things, then no problem. but just delivering something you have learnt without knowing why is the job of a parrot.

and really, does anyone still think parroting folks like dick morris is a winning proposition?

actually, that may be unfair to parrots.

i am endlessly astonished that the republicans repeat dogmas that have no basis (or at best only a circumstantial basis) in reality - such as "lowering taxes increases revenue" or "wealth trickles down within a flat tax code" or "regulation always harms markets".

re healthcare - yes, there's kenneth arrow who understood the issues .... versus republican dogmas. and then there's the simple fact that the private insurance system of healthcare in the us costs at least 50% more than anywhere else but has no better outcomes. it looks like government involvement lowers healthcare costs. huh. who'd have thunk it?

"Professor Arrow explained many of the nonmarket social institutions and regulations characteristic of medical care that he had identified as “attempts to overcome the lack of optimality resulting from asymmetry of information and the inability of competitive markets to allocate efficiently all of the risks inherent in health care.” Pointedly, he said, “It is the general social consensus, clearly, that the laissez-faire solution for medicine is intolerable.”...

In a recent interview with Conor Clarke in The Atlantic, Professor Arrow was asked how much of his 1963 paper “is still an accurate representation of the problems the health market faces.” He responded:

I think the basic analysis hasn’t changed. There are wars over the details, but the basic analysis is accepted. Some specifics have changed. If you look closely at my argument there is a sociological structure. There is a kind of sociological thesis. The market won’t work – it doesn’t work well in the health context. But something else supplements the market, and the thing I put stress on in the paper are the elements that put a non-economic influence on the market: professional commitments to provide a service, to engage in services that aren’t self-serving. Standards of caring decided by non-economic actors. And one problem we have now is an erosion of professional standards. In a way there is more emphasis on markets and self-aggrandizement in the context of health care, and that has led to some of the problems we have today."

http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2010/08/uwe-reinhardt-on-kenneth-arrow-on-health-care.html




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The above is a reply to the following message:
Talking points
By: DigSpace
in ALEA
Sat, 08 Dec 12 8:35 PM
Msg. 12164 of 54959

alea, I'm perfectly fine with borrowed talking points. It is the status of borrowed talking points that at times offends reason. Common talking points these days are notions like health care or higher marginal rates in a progressive tax structure are "job killers". If one wants to argue and show evidence that such is the case, then very well. But the talking points so often crash in as if they were simple empirical facts ... pure water freezes at 0degC at standard pressure. Other notions, notions that are simply theories or ideas, are reported tirelessly as empirical facts. No intellectual fitness seems to be required to assert these conclusions, no effort to assemble references and support. These talking points appear as chiseled into marble, and those meandering around with these slabs is intellectually empty, it lacks process, and insults even the casual reader.

You are rather robust in discriminating between an idea that may or may not be true, and the melting point of ice, something with which the magnitude of broad agreement affords it the property of being a 'fact'.

I bumped into some friends at fish fry last night (is Friday Fish fry a big deal in the UK?) it isn't so much in the west of the US, but apparently more and more so as one heads east.

I had ocean perch. I know the owner ... actually, I know a couple of blokes that the owner decided to give 5% ownership each to. The owner is a smart man. And yes I have met the owner. It is a model of a successful small business, and on occasion, for those few employees who pretty much state ... this is what I want to do forever, then such individuals become part owners. The result is an awesome product. The thing is, my perch and chips was US$14, which is a fair bit for fish and chips ... and folks are lined up everywhere, there is no room to stand. I arrived early. I wanted some decent perch.

They employ strict tip sharing (and folks tip well there, my neighborhood is not rich, but it is not impoverished). My friends had a a couple pints, I had some matters to attend to later and stuck with club soda and bitters. That's 2 bucks for a bottomless supply. The bill was 30 all said and done, we tipped 10, and felt good about it.

What's the point? These are small businessman, the joint undoubtedly clears more waaayyy than $250k/yr, but the TRUTH is they assign segments to each each other as wages, and likely only the old man will take a hit if marginals go up. And they have demand. Lots of demand. And they are not firing anybody over a change in the marginal. Indeed, the old man, he laughs at that stuff ... seriously, he says? I am going to stop making money hand over fist because my takes rate might change a few percent? Nonsense. His staff is below 50. His employees currently enjoy basic catastrophic medical with some preventative tossed in. He expects to migrate to the exchanges, and my understanding is he sees a path to tax shelter those expenses (for his workers) through HSA/FSA provisions where he will adjust compensation packages to reflect his backing out of the insurance provision. He thinks they will get better insurance for less money or more take home as a consequence of the transition.

Job killer? Not at my fishhouse.

What one has is increases health care purchasing power, likely improved benefits, and anticipated to increase the size of take-home pay for both the minority owners, and the more transient.

Or, one could just plaster about with baseless talking points.


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