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Re: Presidents list

By: DigSpace in ALEA | Recommend this post (0)
Fri, 12 Oct 12 12:57 AM | 122 view(s)
Boardmark this board | The Trust Matrix 		Msg. 10776 of 54959
(This msg. is a reply to 10775 by DigSpace)
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I post this content because I think it is always a struggle to interpret a historical figure through our own moral compass and the one described by today.

So let's move to today. On gay marriage ... what is Barrack Obama? A leader? A follower? A flip-flopper? And gay service in the military? Is Obama a gutsy leader? A panderer to a morally repugnant clique? These matters are not settled.

Slavery is settled.

I think, if one takes the time to read all of the debates of Lincoln and Douglas (really really remarkable stuff, neither of those guys the dullest knife in the drawer) read what Lincolns comments and transcripts as available were throughout the War (his CONSIDERABLE trepidation in allowing black regiments e.g.) to his eventual migration towards 'o.k., mayber we should let at least a few of them into the building ... WAS. LEADERSHIP.

Certainly lame by my standards today (reprehensible by my standards today) and clearly sick by csl's standards as well (IMO).

So we vote differently on Lincoln, but seem to share standards on human dignity, and if I may quote "inalienable rights ...." (written by a slave-holder who, transcript indicate, struggled as well).

Lincoln's issue was more one of being a poor-boy (poorer at least) from Illinois, some states and economies he perieved had an unfair advantage (the wealthy had them darn n**g**s).

He, his family, did not. He resented that disadvantage. He essentially embodies a working man's ideology ... we see that today. Sweat shops in Burma (Romney owned) competing against 'good white folk' in New England. Most of us have moved beyond race in this interpretation of fairness, ... we cite trade, etc., but the same pocket-book issues in the end underpin our perceptions and feelings about "wet-backs" "illegals" "parasites" and so on.

In a competition between the takers (owners and mangers) and the makes (workers) we struggle, we at times are confused, and at times we come together (even if we don't mean it). So, Lincoln took the indecency of Slavery and leveraged it for himself ... and for people like him.

A coincidence of purpose. But he stepped up, at a tough time, and died for it. HE said in the end, maybe we should let a few of those inferiors vote. Weak by my standards. Weak it seems by csl's standards ... but in the scope of human history and given the current prominence of the US, rather grand.


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The above is a reply to the following message:
Re: Presidents list
By: DigSpace in ALEA
Fri, 12 Oct 12 12:37 AM 		Msg. 10775 of 54959

Lincoln was bleted replying to this

DOUGLAS:
"I am told that I have but eight minutes more. I would like to talk to you an hour and a half longer, but I will make the best use I can of the remaining eight minutes. Mr. Lincoln said in his first remarks that he was not in favor of the social and political equality of the negro with the white man. Every where up north he has declared that he was not in favor of the social and political equality of the negro, but he would not say whether or not he was opposed to negroes voting and negro citizenship. I want to know whether he is for or against negro citizenship? He declared his utter opposition to the Dred Scott decision, and advanced as a reason that the court had decided that it was not possible for a negro to be a citizen under the Constitution of the United States. If he is opposed to the Dred Scott decision for that reason, he must be in favor of confering the right and privilege of citizenship upon the negro! I have been trying to get an answer from him on that point, but have never yet obtained one, and I will show you why. In every speech he made in the north he quoted the Declaration of Independence to prove that all men were created equal, and insisted that the phrase "all men," included the negro as well as the white man, and that the equality rested upon Divine law. Here is what he said on that point:

(DOUGLAS NOW QUOTING LINCOLN):
"I should like to know if, taking this old Declaration of Independence, which declares that all men are equal upon principle, and making exceptions to it, where will it stop? If one man says it does not mean a negro, why may not another say it does not mean some other man? If that declaration is not the truth, let us get the statute book in which we find it and bear it out."

same reference, US National Park Service:

http://www.nps.gov/liho/historyculture/debate4.htm

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