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Re: Presidents list

By: DigSpace in ALEA | Recommend this post (0)
Fri, 12 Oct 12 12:37 AM | 112 view(s)
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Msg. 10775 of 54959
(This msg. is a reply to 10774 by DigSpace)

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Lincoln was bleted replying to this

DOUGLAS:
"I am told that I have but eight minutes more. I would like to talk to you an hour and a half longer, but I will make the best use I can of the remaining eight minutes. Mr. Lincoln said in his first remarks that he was not in favor of the social and political equality of the negro with the white man. Every where up north he has declared that he was not in favor of the social and political equality of the negro, but he would not say whether or not he was opposed to negroes voting and negro citizenship. I want to know whether he is for or against negro citizenship? He declared his utter opposition to the Dred Scott decision, and advanced as a reason that the court had decided that it was not possible for a negro to be a citizen under the Constitution of the United States. If he is opposed to the Dred Scott decision for that reason, he must be in favor of confering the right and privilege of citizenship upon the negro! I have been trying to get an answer from him on that point, but have never yet obtained one, and I will show you why. In every speech he made in the north he quoted the Declaration of Independence to prove that all men were created equal, and insisted that the phrase "all men," included the negro as well as the white man, and that the equality rested upon Divine law. Here is what he said on that point:

(DOUGLAS NOW QUOTING LINCOLN):
"I should like to know if, taking this old Declaration of Independence, which declares that all men are equal upon principle, and making exceptions to it, where will it stop? If one man says it does not mean a negro, why may not another say it does not mean some other man? If that declaration is not the truth, let us get the statute book in which we find it and bear it out."

same reference, US National Park Service:

http://www.nps.gov/liho/historyculture/debate4.htm


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The above is a reply to the following message:
Re: Presidents list
By: DigSpace
in ALEA
Fri, 12 Oct 12 12:22 AM
Msg. 10774 of 54959

It is certainly fair to say that Abe Lincoln was a white supremacist (definitely in 1858 ... that seems to have waned over the years). But it is a no doubt about it assertion.

It seems from what I once read, that he was against the institution of slavery ... not for its consequence to the inferiors, the Negroes, the slaves, the n*s (he was rather comfortable with that at times) ... his postitions, again, as I recall, were largely that he despised that wealthy white folk could own slaves and thus out compete poor white folk.

There is not doubt his plans and ambitions were to, more or less, get them dark folk outa here.

csl's content, is valuable, in the sense of indicating that.

On the flip side, the next 6 years of struggle did lead Lincoln to his most enlightened moment in that regard ... which is still pretty weak, and that (paraphrasing) 'perhaps we should let some of those brave soldiers, and maybe a few of the brighter ones, vote'.

Certainly, as csl vaguely points out, it far from the morality we mostly hold today.

He did "evolve" on this, as it seems rather clear that Lincoln wanted nothing to do with blacks occupying any part of America, period.

He matured on that, at least some, he was shot and killed ... I think that we cannot pretend to know where he would have gone.

My understanding is he was shot and killed for a speech, witnessed by Booth, where he made these whimsical comments about daring to let a few thousand of the millions of blacks actually participate. Booth, from what I understand, remarked, 'that's it, I'm gonna off that dude ...' and he did.

The Lincoln story is, IMO, the most tortured story in American history (at the big name level). The circumstance of his family, his children (when they did manage to live) and his wife is harrowing. He split time between that, and, well ... trying to get generals to attack attack attack ... a feature he was routinely unable to find until he settled on Grant (definitely), Meade (somewhat), and Sherman (OMG!).

Lincoln, in his 1858 'debate' with Douglas offered some pearls:

LINCOLN:
"While I was at the hotel to-day, an elderly gentleman called upon me to know whether I was really in favor of producing a perfect equality between the negroes and white people. [Great Laughter.] While I had not proposed to myself on this occasion to say much on that subject, yet as the question was asked me I thought I would occupy perhaps five minutes in saying something in regard to it. I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied every thing. I do not understand that because I do not want a negro woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. [Cheers and laughter.] My understanding is that I can just let her alone. I am now in my fiftieth year, and I certainly never have had a black woman for either a slave or a wife. So it seems to me quite possible for us to get along without making either slaves or wives of negroes."

(fourth debate, Douglas and Lincoln)
http://www.nps.gov/liho/historyculture/debate4.htm

Lincoln lost the race for that seat. It was a seat to be later held by one Barrack Obama.



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