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Re: Presidents list

By: DigSpace in ALEA | Recommend this post (0)
Fri, 12 Oct 12 12:22 AM | 118 view(s)
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Msg. 10774 of 54959
(This msg. is a reply to 10773 by DigSpace)

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It is certainly fair to say that Abe Lincoln was a white supremacist (definitely in 1858 ... that seems to have waned over the years). But it is a no doubt about it assertion.

It seems from what I once read, that he was against the institution of slavery ... not for its consequence to the inferiors, the Negroes, the slaves, the n*s (he was rather comfortable with that at times) ... his postitions, again, as I recall, were largely that he despised that wealthy white folk could own slaves and thus out compete poor white folk.

There is not doubt his plans and ambitions were to, more or less, get them dark folk outa here.

csl's content, is valuable, in the sense of indicating that.

On the flip side, the next 6 years of struggle did lead Lincoln to his most enlightened moment in that regard ... which is still pretty weak, and that (paraphrasing) 'perhaps we should let some of those brave soldiers, and maybe a few of the brighter ones, vote'.

Certainly, as csl vaguely points out, it far from the morality we mostly hold today.

He did "evolve" on this, as it seems rather clear that Lincoln wanted nothing to do with blacks occupying any part of America, period.

He matured on that, at least some, he was shot and killed ... I think that we cannot pretend to know where he would have gone.

My understanding is he was shot and killed for a speech, witnessed by Booth, where he made these whimsical comments about daring to let a few thousand of the millions of blacks actually participate. Booth, from what I understand, remarked, 'that's it, I'm gonna off that dude ...' and he did.

The Lincoln story is, IMO, the most tortured story in American history (at the big name level). The circumstance of his family, his children (when they did manage to live) and his wife is harrowing. He split time between that, and, well ... trying to get generals to attack attack attack ... a feature he was routinely unable to find until he settled on Grant (definitely), Meade (somewhat), and Sherman (OMG!).

Lincoln, in his 1858 'debate' with Douglas offered some pearls:

LINCOLN:
"While I was at the hotel to-day, an elderly gentleman called upon me to know whether I was really in favor of producing a perfect equality between the negroes and white people. [Great Laughter.] While I had not proposed to myself on this occasion to say much on that subject, yet as the question was asked me I thought I would occupy perhaps five minutes in saying something in regard to it. I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied every thing. I do not understand that because I do not want a negro woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. [Cheers and laughter.] My understanding is that I can just let her alone. I am now in my fiftieth year, and I certainly never have had a black woman for either a slave or a wife. So it seems to me quite possible for us to get along without making either slaves or wives of negroes."

(fourth debate, Douglas and Lincoln)
http://www.nps.gov/liho/historyculture/debate4.htm

Lincoln lost the race for that seat. It was a seat to be later held by one Barrack Obama.



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The above is a reply to the following message:
Re: Presidents list
By: DigSpace
in ALEA
Thu, 11 Oct 12 10:00 PM
Msg. 10773 of 54959

again, the trampling of the Consititution is an asserion without reference ... where doe sit say states can cut and run as they see fit.

Lousiana .... in the Union, doing pretty good, lots a folks with a different language, lost of seafood, a big great river, all sort of trade opportunities, and feeling pretty safe ... so LA says on a Monday of whimsy "we're out, its been fun, but we are out" (never mind debts associated with LA even being there) .... ooops, now here come the Spanish outfitted with all sorts of guns and stuff ... hey guys, can ya help ... "sorry, you left, you are on your own," ouch, ok I'm back in, .... whew we defeated the Spanish, then another 5 years .... well folks, I think I'm going to cut loose again, its been fun.

csl, Nations have never been established on the principles you seem to claim are Constitutionally embedded.

Getting married takes half a bottle of cheap whiskey and a night in Vegas .... getting divorced is always messy.

Now, whether Slavery was a state's right or not is entirely separate from this notion that the Constitution has embedded a divorce on demand clause.

There is not a lot to read on that from the Founder's, cause, IMO, those folks wre rather considered and knew from the get-go that the whole notion was untenable.

A treaty would require 50 treaties (knowing that on a bad monday, VA could just walk) and so on.

This notion of Constitutional enshrinement of the "its been fun, but I want out" clause is pure fabrication. It is not and has not and will never be in terms for the formation of a Nation state (IMO).

Should LA leave today, do they owe the other 49 for the dikes, are they still part of NATO? This notion doesn't hold. That is why the escape clause ain't there.


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