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Re: Entomology clarification***

By: DigSpace in ALEA | Recommend this post (0)
Thu, 10 May 12 7:55 PM | 42 view(s)
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Msg. 07766 of 54959
(This msg. is a reply to 07765 by Cactus Flower)

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Alea, in focusing deliberately on the notion of single alleles as opposed to species, I was certainly on one hand arguing for the Selfish Gene (or the Altruistic Gene) without reconciling that fact that some traits are indeed multi-gene traits. It is the sum of these alleles (the trait, altruism) that is selected for, they individually may well not present advantage. At that level on can argue for selection of individuals or species, not just alleles, as they represent the effective grouping that affords advantage.

I still would submit, that assigning selection at the species level is arbitrary. Altruism may be a trait, a selectable trait, and one that results in the selection of its constituent alleles in tandem, but I still don't see a reason why we need view the functional unit to be the species.

Altuism is a trait, being selected for in a variety of species, and that if one or a dozen species is extinguished, it does not IMO threaten the survival of altruism. When combined with other traits (in some species) it may prove decisive, in others, perhaps not. But given an Earth with life brimming over, I think it is worth occasionally discarding the species filter in our measurement of what is, and what it appears will be.




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The above is a reply to the following message:
Re: Entomology clarification***
By: Cactus Flower
in ALEA
Thu, 10 May 12 7:40 PM
Msg. 07765 of 54959

I see what you are saying, dig. And of course, what you say is correct from that perspective.

But you can go to Legoland and remark upon the fact everything is made of lego, and then you can also note that the buildings are different. And then you can wonder if the rain or the wind or the sun may affect the structures, and by affecting the structures affect the composition of the lego.

I think we agree but we are simply talking about the same thing viewed from different angles.

At the species level, where sub-populations of alleles are distinct, the balance between selfishness and altruism is important. That is kinda what The Selfish Gene is about.

If you want to read a really useful little book on evolutionary justifications for morality, I recommend The Origins of Virtue by Matt Ridley. Draws together all sorts of strands from Maine lobster fishermen and the spontaneous emergence of property rights, the tragedy of the commons, evolution, the prisoners' dilemma and suchlike to show why some degree of altruism is not just virtuous, it is socially efficient.

Once you know that, it is hard to see Ayn Rand as delivering anything but a harsh social theory in which entirely selfish people try to justify their greed in a make-believe land. Sure, that works in fiction.

It is very clear that the Republican Party is in the grip of an attempt to make America into a Rand Republic. To do so, they must collectively shut their eyes to reality.


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