« GRITZ Home | Email msg. | Reply to msg. | Post new | Board info. Previous | Home | Next

And putting to bed at least one logical fallacy pursued here recently ...

By: monkeytrots in GRITZ | Recommend this post (0)
Tue, 10 Jun 25 11:49 PM | 14 view(s)
Boardmark this board | Grits Breakfast of Champeens!
Msg. 09538 of 09752
(This msg. is a reply to 09536 by monkeytrots)

Jump:
Jump to board:
Jump to msg. #

But if the universe were infinite, would it not also have infinite mass, and thus infinite inertia ? What is the specific logical fallacy involved in such reasoning ?

The idea that an infinite universe must have infinite mass and thus infinite inertia is a compelling but flawed assumption. Let’s break this down to address why this reasoning doesn’t hold and identify the specific logical fallacy involved.
Does an Infinite Universe Imply Infinite Mass and Infinite Inertia?
Infinite Universe Does Not Necessitate Infinite Mass:
An infinite universe refers to its spatial extent or volume being unbounded. However, this does not mean it contains infinite mass. Mass is a measure of matter, and the distribution of matter in the universe is not necessarily uniform or infinite.

In modern cosmology, the universe is often modeled as infinite in extent (e.g., in a flat or open geometry per the Friedmann-Lemaître-Robertson-Walker models). However, observations (e.g., from the cosmic microwave background and galaxy surveys) suggest the universe has a finite average density of matter and energy, roughly 10⁻²⁷ kg/m³.

Even in an infinite volume, if the density is finite, the total mass could be finite or infinite depending on the distribution. For example:
If matter is sparsely distributed (e.g., galaxies separated by vast voids), the total mass might not sum to infinity.

Current models suggest the observable universe has finite mass (about 10⁵³ kg), and while the entire universe may be infinite in size, there’s no evidence that its total mass is infinite.

Infinite Mass and Infinite Inertia:
Inertia is tied to mass, so infinite mass would imply infinite inertia, meaning the universe as a whole would resist any change in its state of motion infinitely. However:
The universe isn’t a single object with a unified motion; it’s a collection of matter and energy in relative motion (e.g., galaxies moving apart due to cosmic expansion).

Even if the universe had infinite mass, inertia applies to individual objects or systems, not the universe as a whole, which lacks a single reference frame for motion (per general relativity).

The concept of the universe having “infinite inertia” is problematic because inertia is a local property, and applying it globally to an infinite system is not physically meaningful.

Cosmological Context:
The universe’s expansion (driven by dark energy) suggests it doesn’t behave like a static object with inertia. General relativity describes the universe’s dynamics via spacetime curvature, not as a single body with mass or inertia.

If the universe had infinite mass, it would imply infinite gravitational collapse (per Newtonian gravity) or extreme curvature (per general relativity), contradicting observations of a relatively flat, expanding universe.

Why the Reasoning Fails
The assumption that an infinite universe must have infinite mass and infinite inertia overlooks the distinction between spatial extent and material content. It also misapplies the concept of inertia, which is defined for finite objects, to the universe as a whole, which is a system governed by different physical principles (e.g., general relativity).
Specific Logical Fallacy
The primary logical fallacy in this reasoning is the hasty generalization (or overgeneralization). This fallacy occurs when a conclusion is drawn about a whole based on insufficient or unrepresentative evidence, or when a property of parts is improperly extended to the whole. Specifically:
The reasoning assumes that because the universe is infinite in spatial extent, it must have infinite mass (generalizing from “infinite size” to “infinite matter”).

It further generalizes that infinite mass implies infinite inertia, applying a property of individual objects (inertia) to the entire universe, which is not a single object but a dynamic system.

The fallacy lies in not considering that infinite volume can coexist with finite or non-uniformly distributed mass, and that inertia is not a meaningful concept for the universe as a whole.

Additionally, there’s an element of the equivocation fallacy, where the term “infinite” is used ambiguously:
“Infinite” in terms of spatial extent (volume) is conflated with “infinite” in terms of mass or matter, which are distinct concepts. This ambiguity leads to the erroneous conclusion that infinite size implies infinite mass.

Supporting Example
Consider an infinite lattice of points in space, each separated by 1 meter, with a 1 kg mass at each point. The lattice is infinite in extent, but if the density (mass per unit volume) is finite, the total mass depends on how matter is distributed. If only a finite region contains masses, the total mass is finite despite infinite space. This illustrates that infinite volume doesn’t necessitate infinite mass.
Conclusion
An infinite universe does not necessarily have infinite mass or infinite inertia, as mass depends on matter distribution, not just spatial extent, and inertia is a local property not meaningfully applied to the entire universe. The logical fallacy in this reasoning is primarily a hasty generalization, assuming infinite size implies infinite mass and inertia without evidence, compounded by equivocation in misusing “infinite” across different contexts. Cosmological observations and physical principles support a universe with finite density, making infinite mass and inertia unlikely and physically inconsistent.

Try DeepSearch to research wider




Avatar

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good ...




» You can also:
- - - - -
The above is a reply to the following message:
Back to basics. Inertia, momentum, infinite universe, infinite mass - but NOT INFINITE INERTIA.
By: monkeytrots
in GRITZ
Tue, 10 Jun 25 11:33 PM
Msg. 09536 of 09752

What is the difference between inertia and momentum?

Inertia is the property of an object to resist changes to its state of motion, determined by its mass. A heavier object has more inertia, meaning it’s harder to start, stop, or change its direction. It’s a qualitative concept, described by Newton’s First Law.
Momentum is a quantitative measure of an object’s motion, defined as the product of its mass and velocity (p = m·v). It’s a vector quantity, meaning it has both magnitude and direction. Momentum describes how much motion an object has and is central to Newton’s Second and Third Laws.
Key Differences:
Nature: Inertia is a property (resistance to change), momentum is a measurable quantity (mass times velocity).

Units: Inertia has no units (it’s mass-dependent), momentum is measured in kg·m/s.

Vector/Scalar: Inertia is scalar (mass-based), momentum is a vector (includes direction).

Context: Inertia explains why objects maintain their state; momentum quantifies motion and is conserved in collisions.

Example: A heavy truck has high inertia (hard to move or stop) and, when moving fast, high momentum (large mass × velocity). A bicycle has less inertia and, at the same speed, less momentum due to lower mass.

Is the concept of 'infinite inertia' possible ? Would that concept not violate the LAW of conservation of momentum.

The concept of infinite inertia is not physically possible within the framework of classical physics and would indeed conflict with the law of conservation of momentum, as well as other fundamental principles. Let’s break this down:
What is Infinite Inertia?
Inertia is the property of an object to resist changes to its state of motion, determined by its mass. An object with infinite inertia would, in theory, have infinite mass, making it impossible to accelerate, decelerate, or change its direction, regardless of the force applied. Such an object would remain absolutely fixed in its state of motion (or rest) forever.
Why Infinite Inertia is Not Possible
Infinite Mass and Physical Reality:
In classical mechanics, inertia is directly proportional to mass. Infinite inertia implies infinite mass, which is not observed in the universe. Even massive objects like stars or black holes have finite mass.

In relativity, as an object’s speed approaches the speed of light, its relativistic mass increases, but it never becomes infinite because reaching the speed of light would require infinite energy (per Einstein’s theory of special relativity). Thus, infinite inertia is unattainable.

Implications for Forces:
Newton’s Second Law (F = ma) states that acceleration is inversely proportional to mass. For an object with infinite inertia (infinite mass), any finite force would produce zero acceleration (a = F/∞ = 0). This would make the object immovable, which contradicts the behavior of all known physical systems.

Conflict with the Law of Conservation of Momentum
The law of conservation of momentum states that the total momentum of a closed system remains constant if no external forces act on it. Momentum is defined as p = m·v (mass times velocity). Let’s examine how infinite inertia (infinite mass) would affect this:
Infinite Momentum:
If an object has infinite mass and any non-zero velocity, its momentum (p = m·v) would be infinite. In a collision or interaction with another object, conserving momentum would be problematic:
If the infinite-mass object is at rest (v = 0), its momentum is zero (p = ∞·0 = 0, though this is mathematically indeterminate).

If it’s moving (v ≠ 0), its momentum is infinite, and any interaction with a finite-mass object would lead to inconsistencies, as the system’s total momentum would either be undefined or infinite.

In either case, the conservation of momentum becomes impossible to apply meaningfully because infinite quantities disrupt the balance of finite momentum transfers in a closed system.

Collision Scenarios:
Suppose a finite-mass object collides with an infinite-mass object. If the infinite-mass object is immovable (due to infinite inertia), it wouldn’t change velocity, implying that the finite-mass object’s momentum must change to conserve total momentum. However, this could lead to unphysical outcomes, like infinite forces or velocities, violating Newton’s laws.

In a closed system, the presence of infinite momentum (or infinite resistance to momentum change) makes it impossible to conserve a finite total momentum, breaking the conservation law.

Mathematical Breakdown:
Conservation of momentum relies on finite, measurable quantities. Infinite mass introduces indeterminate forms (e.g., ∞·0 or ∞ - ∞) in momentum calculations, rendering the law inapplicable or undefined. Physics avoids such singularities by assuming all objects have finite mass.

Additional Considerations
Relativistic Context: In special relativity, objects approaching the speed of light exhibit increasing relativistic mass, but they never achieve infinite mass. The concept of infinite inertia would require infinite energy, which violates the finite energy constraints of the universe.

Cosmological Perspective: Even in cosmology, concepts like singularities (e.g., in black holes) involve extremely high but finite densities and mass. Infinite inertia is a theoretical abstraction, not a physical reality.

Philosophical Angle: An object with infinite inertia would be akin to an “unmovable object” in the classic paradox of the irresistible force. Such a concept is logically inconsistent with a universe governed by finite physical laws.

Conclusion
The concept of infinite inertia is not possible in classical or relativistic physics because it implies infinite mass, which is unphysical and leads to inconsistencies in applying Newton’s laws and conservation principles. Specifically, it would violate the law of conservation of momentum by introducing infinite or indeterminate momentum, making it impossible to balance momentum in a closed system. All known physical objects have finite mass and inertia, ensuring that momentum conservation holds in observable interactions.

Explain relativistic mass

Explore black hole physics


« GRITZ Home | Email msg. | Reply to msg. | Post new | Board info. Previous | Home | Next