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Re: A Beloved Bar Owner Was Skeptical About the Virus. Then He Took a Cruise.

By: Cactus Flower in ALEA | Recommend this post (0)
Sun, 19 Apr 20 1:46 PM | 48 view(s)
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Msg. 35737 of 54959
(This msg. is a reply to 35734 by clo)

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Indeed.

The trouble in the US is that the centre is in between fact and fantasy.

There's no conversation to be had until the right stops working backwards: that's to say, it works out what it wants to believe (fantasy), then looks for any facts it can to support the theory, and tries to undermine by any means information it finds inconvenient. If there are dissonant facts, they don't reject their theories. They attack the messenger. And if necessary they disappear and return later as if time cured the errors.

Until they do real time falsification of their own hypotheses sincerely, there's no way to talk to them.

In this space, the point is to look at the factscape and try to build theories that conform with it. If a theory fails, accept it, learn the lesson and move along to the next idea.

Unless you figure why people like Hannity and Limbaugh distribute their bizarre theories, and that you can't rely upon them, then you can't expect to have conversations with people who see what their game is. It's a shame. But that's why I'm not interested in arguing across the centre line of US politics.

I am happy to argue with the sort of Republicans there used to be, who are to my right but whose theories are based in science or reasonable choices; and also to argue with identity politics liberals and socialists to my left. But really, I'm not interested in arguing with people whose trick is always to try to undermine actual evidence, or actual people, so as to indulge their fantasies. Life's too short.

Let them congregate with one another. The virus will be right there with them. And Darwin too.


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The above is a reply to the following message:
A Beloved Bar Owner Was Skeptical About the Virus. Then He Took a Cruise.
By: clo
in ALEA
Sun, 19 Apr 20 12:32 PM
Msg. 35734 of 54959

A prime example how that Fox propaganda kills.

A Beloved Bar Owner Was Skeptical About the Virus. Then He Took a Cruise.
Joe Joyce oversaw JJ Bubbles, a welcoming tavern in a conservative corner of Brooklyn, for 43 years until he died of Covid-19.

By Ginia Bellafante
April 18, 2020

I have heard about Joe Joyce for as long as I have known his oldest son, Eddie, a neighbor and friend, a lawyer turned novelist who was at odds with his father politically but grateful for his contradictions. Joe Joyce was a Trump supporter who chose selectively from the menu of current Republican ideologies, freely rejecting what didn’t suit him. He didn’t want to hear how much you loved Hillary Clinton, as one regular at his bar put it to me, but he was not going to make the Syrian immigrant who came in to play darts feel as if he belonged anywhere else.
.....
It was a good time to own a bar in southwest Brooklyn; the vibe didn’t accommodate restraint. But even as moods and tastes shifted, JJ Bubbles and Joe Joyce largely thrived — a son sent to Harvard, a daughter to graduate school at Brown, a getaway place bought in New Hampshire — until the cruelest interventions of the pandemic, last month.

I have heard about Joe Joyce for as long as I have known his oldest son, Eddie, a neighbor and friend, a lawyer turned novelist who was at odds with his father politically but grateful for his contradictions. Joe Joyce was a Trump supporter who chose selectively from the menu of current Republican ideologies, freely rejecting what didn’t suit him. He didn’t want to hear how much you loved Hillary Clinton, as one regular at his bar put it to me, but he was not going to make the Syrian immigrant who came in to play darts feel as if he belonged anywhere else.

....
On March 1, Joe Joyce and his wife, Jane, set sail for Spain on a cruise, flying first to Florida. His adult children — Kevin, Eddie and Kristen Mider — suggested that the impending doom of the coronavirus made this a bad idea. Joe Joyce was 74, a nonsmoker, healthy; four years after he opened his bar he stopped drinking completely. He didn’t see the problem.

“He watched Fox, and believed it was under control,’’ Kristen told me.

Early in March Sean Hannity went on air proclaiming that he didn’t like the way that the American people were getting scared “unnecessarily.’’ He saw it all, he said, “as like, let’s bludgeon Trump with this new hoax.”

Eventually, Fox changed course and took the virus more seriously, but the Joyces were long gone by then. On March 14, they returned to New York from Barcelona, and the next day, before bars and restaurants were forced to close in the city, Joe Joyce went to work at JJ Bubbles for the last time.

He and his wife then headed to their house in New Hampshire. Their children were checking in from New York and New Jersey, and on March 27, when Kristen got off the phone with her father, she called an ambulance. He was wheezing. His oxygen level turned out to be a dangerously low 70 percent. On April 9, he died of Covid-19. The following day, Artie Nelson, one of his longtime bartenders at JJ Bubbles, and also in his 70s, died of the virus as well.

It is possible, of course, that Joe Joyce did not contract the coronavirus on a trip to Spain, where almost 20,000 have died from complications related to it. Although the combination of being on a cruise ship — a proven petri dish for infections — and visiting a country with a full-blown outbreak is hard to ignore. But there was a way he might have avoided the trip, his daughter speculated. “If Trump had gone on TV with a mask on and said, ‘Hey this is serious,’ I don’t think he would have gone.”

When her father began to feel sick, he resisted getting tested. “He didn’t think that he could have it,” Kristen said, “because he wasn’t 100 percent confident that it was a thing.”

Seven days before he was admitted to the hospital, Joe and Kristen had an argument about the emerging public health crisis, which Kristen described as the only dispute she ever had with her father that she wished she hadn’t won. “He said, ‘Don’t you think this is fishy? Do you know anyone who has it? Do you know anyone who has died from it?’ And I said, ‘Dad, I don’t know anyone now, but give me a week and I bet I will.’”

article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/18/nyregion/coronavirus-jjbubbles-joe-joyce.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage


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